Raid DPS - How can we fix it?

[Merlaina]

If only we had a Heart pet 5 mages in a raid could summon Captain Planet. Nothing could stop him, except maybe Chuck Norris. Or, you know, dirt.

[svenalo]

I took a step back from all this and thought about things for a few days, and have come to the realization we are probably going about this the wrong way. Finding ways to boost DPS is all well and good, but the real crux of the question is where mages should be on the DPS rankings. Until you define the rankings, and then have parses to show where we lie relative to those rankings, the devs aren't really going to do a whole lot to change anything. Further, and this is based on how performance and such testing is done in businesses world wide, you have to make this analysis for the p90 - meaning, for those people playing not right at the top but just behind the curve.

So the first thing to do, really, is define where we should be in the rankings...and hopefully find at the same time some dev support for those rankings. Comments?

[Voragath]

I took a step back from all this and thought about things for a few days, and have come to the realization we are probably going about this the wrong way. Finding ways to boost DPS is all well and good, but the real crux of the question is where mages should be on the DPS rankings. Until you define the rankings, and then have parses to show where we lie relative to those rankings, the devs aren't really going to do a whole lot to change anything. Further, and this is based on how performance and such testing is done in businesses world wide, you have to make this analysis for the p90 - meaning, for those people playing not right at the top but just behind the curve.

So the first thing to do, really, is define where we should be in the rankings...and hopefully find at the same time some dev support for those rankings. Comments?

Doesn't stop us from coming up with ways to fix it. Only a few people have data from UF because only a handful of guilds were there. It's still quite a few months away before guilds are getting in to the end of HoT to even determine what the trend in HoT is. If we wait for the end results like we did in UF, we'll fall only farther behind. If, magically, we came out on top, then all this discussion is no longer moot, it's created a pool of neat aa's that can be added to our class for the future or banked as aa's to fix us later.

What you are discussing sounds more like the magnitude of the change, which is not what we are discussing here. But it is a valid point to determine where we are in the rankings and I'm still waiting for people to start posting parses on eqlive or pm'ing the devs. I'm still waiting for the parses that resulted in our nerf but I never saw any which tells me the devs don't care jack smurf about parses anyway or even do their own. Really, if they cared that much about parses, surely they could have set up a program to figure out a parse. If you don't believe me, just look at the evidence that they gave necros twincast for their dots then took it away because their dps was already at the top lol. How'd they know it was at the top, because the whole beta community, necros included, threw a fit and told them (and I think a few parses were pointed out). They seem to be following mob rule in some cases.

[Sarenot]

The real problem I think is that the oldschool definition of relative dps is so blurred nowadays to be useless.

When I started EQ, i remember this ranking

shortfight > medium fight > long fight

or

burst DPS > burst + sustained dps > sustained dps

and for casters this should have translated as

Wiz on short fights > mage on medium fights > necros on long fights.

The problems nowadays seems to be :

1 - some classes can sustain burst damage far too long - ironically mages now help there with new rods
2 - classes that traditionally had low burst but great sustained damage now have high burst damage (necros) and high sustained damage - and mages help there too

The 'medium duration' fight duration where mages were meant to shine doesnt exist any more.

[Mindrix]

Raid DPS is about skill, timing, stacking and then, class balance. That's been the problem. I could probably top (given solid a solid support group) guild parses, except on fights I can't realistically DPS well, the parses of guilds from Top 6 and down. Does that mean our class is balanced against others? No. Does it imply I'm a much better Magician than others? No. It just means I have practice dealing with top end DPS & know where a lot of the benefits come from.

Does top-end DPS take too much work? Oh hell yes. Being top DPS for a top guild requires way, WAY too much work. You have to have a set of complex timings & stackings memorized; they change each expansion; you have to parse out which timings are better and plenty of other details. On top of that, you need Max AA & the willingness to burn Glyphs. Then you end up in a class-balance set of problems.

That problem is all "stacking". Let me explain.

If you're in a good group, have all the AAs, and are going for a spell DPS burn, this is pretty much your best option, for crit rate at least (I'd rather not get into all of the other stuff right now).

Full AAs - 35% Crit Rate
First Spire - 21% Crit Rate
Fierce Eye Effect - 10% Crit Rate
Spirit of Vesagran - 12% Crit Rate
Auspice of the Hunter - 24% Crit Rate

Total = 102% Crit rate. I.e. Crit every spell.

All told, if all hit at once, that'll last for about 90s (tick variance and all that jazz)

If a Wizard does their same stacking (they've been able to hit 100% since SoD with proper group setup), they'll get a boost to about 75% boost to their base damage potential. (Not given total DPS increase, but call it potential, for lack of a lot of complex numbers). We, on the other hand, only see about a 35% potential increase. Only 50% of the DPS is from Spells. Of the Critical rate, we're already at 35%. That means only 65% base Crit rate difference with all of that work (Massive AAs, perfect group, 2 other classes hitting timings perfectly). Numbers aren't perfect, but, all told, if your DPS was 10,000 before that happens, it really only goes up to 13,500. If a Wizard is at 10,000 DPS, it goes up to roughly 17,500 DPS, in that scenario.

That is our problem, on raids. This probably really doesn't exist in groups, at least not in the same way. Wizards/Necros able to control their agro, outside of high-end raiders, is fairly rare, when doing comparative DPS to a Group-level Magician. This is specifically why I've wanted it either as a direct, Spell-based "disc"-style ability OR a "raid-only" style of spell. If we got it as a base-line DPS increase, we'd be under the nerf bat SOOO badly, it isn't funny. I don't want that, and neither do you. For those that remember, getting Green Pet Pulling fixed crushed us badly and we neglected how much DPS improvements we needed going into TSS.

And Sarenot is right, there's no "long/medium/short" fight distinctions anymore. Considering 30+ minute fights are considered "normal" again (hasn't been since Luclin), and that they mix burn & grind elements in them, the old systems are now pretty well gone.

[Sarenot]

Great post Mindrix. On raids, mages have to work extra hard to reach optimal dps with lots of support and still only deliver midrange damage potential. Other classes can (I was going to say almost, but I don't think even that is the case) outdamage us with autoattacks. It is a vicious circle too.. why give good support classes to mages for average damage return when you can put them with other classes for more damage return.

Personally I think we need a 2 step solution, since our dps is divided into 2

1 - spell damage - i like Many line as a solution to this, yes, other classes do not have raid only spells but I'd rather have this than something OP for the grp game
2 - we could have a similar line to Many that affects pet damage - aura like arcane distillect but that increases pet dps by x% based on number of pets present around it.

Like this we could realistically have a situation where:

- if a mage can do a perfect burn , in perfect conditions, where both pet and spell damage lands for full, it is expected that the mage will do excellent damage, still dependant on fight lenght for positioning, but imho should be above necros on shorter fights (whatever that means) and wizards on anything over 90 seconds maybe (theoretical numbers)
- if a mage can not use pets properly, only spells, damage potential will go down x % (assuming our damage is split 65% spells, rest pets) I'd expect this to still allow us to be respectable but not in the top tier
- if a mage can use pets only, but spell damage is reduced (silences, FR mobs etc) then mage does less damage than necros or wizards

This is what I would like to see. A solution where a mage can work towards achieving a perfect weave and see the results, and make other classes work for their position.

[Merlaina]

I think some excellent point are being made here all around. I'd like to revisit Svenalo's point for a second of having to aim for the p90 (I'm assuming this means the 90th percentile or something like that). I've heard many complaints on here about our DPS lagging behind other classes in raids, and I believe you. I've been shown a fair number of parses and have seen the SOE board posts rating us as one of the least desirable classes on raids. But I'd also like to speak up from the back of the raid bus for a sec and say: that isn't me.

My guild is actually fairly mage heavy on raids, averaging 4 mages a raid. Unless a mob is especially resistant or some other damage mod mechanic is in play I almost always show up in the top 3 on our parses (with a zerker usually being first and me and a rogue vying for #2). Now I will say that the other mages, despite having better gear, more AAs, etc very rarely beat me, and most don't place in the top 5. We're still trying to figure out what we do differently that causes this. I know of them is especially frustrated since she has implemented many of my suggestions and is still coming up short.

I'm not saying this to imply that I'm better at raiding than the other mages in my guild. They have from time to time beaten me on the parse. What I am implying is that in a tower farming guild working on breaking into UF I'm placing somewhere in the top 3 regularly and am not feeling the raid DPS pinch. Yet.
Were I in a bubble and not able to see outside my own guild, if you asked what I thought needed to happen to fix my DPS I'd say "nothing. Mages rock".

I think saying that you need to aim at the p90 in this case is incorrect, because the p90 of today will eventually be in the spot where the top guilds are now. Eventually (and with the level cap raise probably sooner rather than later) their melee will be getting UF raid weapons. Eventually those guilds will have a much higher DPS, and thus shorter fights, and thus the burn damage becomes more important than the sustained. And at that point the mages in those p90 guilds will go "oh, THAT's what they were complaining about". For that reason I am always interested in what is happening in the top guilds, because that is likely what I have to look forward to as my own guild progresses.

[Mindrix]

Spell Damage, Fire Focus, Pet Focus & natural timing ability. Only difference between Kozvar & myself was better timing at spell-casting on the Weave. But it was worth about 10% more DPS.

[Failcon]

Bumping, we had alot of good ideas here. Some might be worth looking over and rehashing.

[Nylrem0fTest]

Mindrix had the best and probably easiest suggestion IMO (forums at the end of beta HoT I believe is where I saw it). A magic based Clash of Many spell. It assists with our problem of needing another magic based nuke for fire resistant mobs, and enhances raid dps without overpowering solo/group magicians. Furthermore, it should be really easy to implement. Also as he has stated, nuke ability stacks best in raids for us. Don't know about you guys, but I've never been put into a melee centric group so my pet can take advantage of melee stacking abilities, I'm always in a caster group, and use First Spire (and Second sometimes when pre-buffed on suspended pet of course) and want an ability that stacks with First Spire.