and we are only 2nd on sustained if a Wizard goes OOM before us.
Calebe
Check the parses Calebe, IIRC I don't think we are beating the Wizards on sustained either.
With their Gather giving them more mana and refreshing much faster, along with using our mana rods, and what ever other regen abilities they have that I am not aware of, they out last us on long burns if I am correct.
Only way our wizards don't parse higher is because they get put on add control or back up snare duty or some such collateral job.
Danille wrote:
Calebe, exactly the point/strategy we need. I was chatting with our wizzys while raiding last night and the thing is, they can beat our DPS sustained easily without using the full out burn that would cause them to go oom. That should never happen.
also Danille, I \know that you are already on the same page but I just want to state it here that the answer we are looking for is to raise magicians abilities, not to nerf other classes in order to "FIX" the magicians standings in the DPS ranks.
A sarcastic remark was made by one of the posters in the necro Death Bloom thread ont he SoE boards that said exactly that.
So I think you will get good political support from other class reps at the Fan Faire if you let it be known up front that we dont want the top DPS classes nerfed, we jsut want to be raised into our rightful, "historical" position on the DPS ladder.
This copy and paste is from the necro point of view, again posted on the SoE forums. I think there are a few points that can be used in our arguments.
The reason I keep using necros is that from our point of view (or at least my point of view) necros have been successful over several expansions in getting very good placement in the DPS elite, so they must be doing or saying something that gets the DEV's attention and support when it comes to the way they approach SoE with their arguments for improvements.
Scarpa wrote:
Where is our burst overpowered? So people are saying a few of the highest skilled & perfectly supported necros are able to squeeze out a 50k burn in a minute, and uphold it to 25k sustained. I dont see that fault in that.
Zerkers are burning for 70k and matching sustained. The difference in archetype is irrelevant.
If the percieved imbalance is necro vs wiz, then you are looking at the entire picture wrong. Necros dont compete with wizards any more than necros compete with beastlords...we compete with dps classes, period, regardless of their archetype. And using that perspective, necros are doing 25% less dps than top-tier dps and not running away from them on sustained...and the necro is buring 5aa glyphs to do it while the others are not hog-tied to this mandate. Necro damages are applied completely differently than wizards; how can a compare even hope to exist?
The issues is other dps classes are too low because...
Edit: he continues to give his opinion of why other classes are low.
I am sure you can see how the magician's position can be inserted with similar arguments regarding competing with the DPS classes, period.
Reason being that I am afraid of just limiting us to the Wizard, Mage, Necro triangle while if we focus on all DPS classes, we realize that the casters as a whole are 2nd teir DPS classes and we have the possibility of getting higher boost when compared to all DPS especially with melee classes doing over 70k DPS.
If we argue that we are say 25% behind necros on burst DPS and SoE bumps us up 30% for the sake of argument, that still puts us 20% behind the top classes and may not where we want to ultimately end up...
Well ou get my point.
Sued...
Last edited by qibrme on Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I know CT does not have the best wizards, but I don't ever get beaten in sustained by them. The only class that consistently will beat me is necros right now, occasional a BL will jump ahead of me only because they have a bard/sham.
As it stands it should be: Ber/wiz are top-teir. Then rog/monk/nec/mage/rang/BL should all be the second teir seeing as they all bring some real useful stuff in terms of being able to drop aggro or move better or whatever. It is sort of like that now except rangers are in the top with ber/wiz which should get rectified next expan.
Like in that thread, a mage will beat a necro in burst 9 out of 10 times roughly (with equal skill/gear/ADPS classes). I generally have 0 issues beating CT necs which are very good compared to parses I have seen from other guilds, they will get the occasional badass parse though but that is the out of the norm parse not the standard.
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qibrme wrote:also Danille, I \know that you are already on the same page but I just want to state it here that the answer we are looking for is to raise magicians abilities, not to nerf other classes in order to "FIX" the magicians standings in the DPS ranks.
A sarcastic remark was made by one of the posters in the necro Death Bloom thread ont he SoE boards that said exactly that.
So I think you will get good political support from other class reps at the Fan Faire if you let it be known up front that we dont want the top DPS classes nerfed, we jsut want to be raised into our rightful, "historical" position on the DPS ladder.
qibrme wrote:This copy and paste is from the necro point of view, again posted on the SoE forums. I think there are a few points that can be used in our arguments.
The reason I keep using necros is that from our point of view (or at least my point of view) necros have been successful over several expansions in getting very good placement in the DPS elite, so they must be doing or saying something that gets the DEV's attention and support when it comes to the way they approach SoE with their arguments for improvements.
Scarpa wrote:
Where is our burst overpowered? So people are saying a few of the highest skilled & perfectly supported necros are able to squeeze out a 50k burn in a minute, and uphold it to 25k sustained. I dont see that fault in that.
Zerkers are burning for 70k and matching sustained. The difference in archetype is irrelevant.
If the percieved imbalance is necro vs wiz, then you are looking at the entire picture wrong. Necros dont compete with wizards any more than necros compete with beastlords...we compete with dps classes, period, regardless of their archetype. And using that perspective, necros are doing 25% less dps than top-tier dps and not running away from them on sustained...and the necro is buring 5aa glyphs to do it while the others are not hog-tied to this mandate. Necro damages are applied completely differently than wizards; how can a compare even hope to exist?
The issues is other dps classes are too low because...
Edit: he continues to give his opinion of why other classes are low.
I am sure you can see how the magician's position can be inserted with similar arguments regarding competing with the DPS classes, period.
Reason being that I am afraid of just limiting us to the Wizard, Mage, Necro triangle while if we focus on all DPS classes, we realize that the casters as a whole are 2nd teir DPS classes and we have the possibility of getting higher boost when compared to all DPS especially with melee classes doing over 70k DPS.
If we argue that we are say 25% behind necros on burst DPS and SoE bumps us up 30% for the sake of argument, that still puts us 20% behind the top classes and may not where we want to ultimately end up...
Well ou get my point.
Sued...
I've always felt that if DPS casters have a mana limitation then melee should have an endurance limitation that is reasonablly the same. In the current situation of having wizards and rogues never run out of mana/end and there is a huge blur of the burst, medium and sustained dps catagories, is that really what the developers want? Seems doubtful. Edit: The intent being to hit on our #3 main request, increasing our mana regen to be on par with the other classes. But good topics to discuss over a few MT purchased rounds with our SoE friends!
Last edited by Danille on Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Another topic I plan on exploring will be the real challenges that mages face with high end raiding intense DPS centric guild rosters.
It is unfortunate that in the endgame most guild/raid leaders feel that mage dps can be replaced by not only other dps classes but also in some cases non dps classes who happen to beat us in dps because the mage raid dps is presently underpowered.
Those same guild/raid leaders also feel that mage utility benefits can usually be handled by a single high attendance mage, we (mages) are forced to maintain token presence, subordinate to other dps classes, most significantly on those same high end raiding guild rosters.
The core root of the problem is that a mage dps is ranked too low when parsed for the length of a typical boss raid mob encounter. When those parses are taken and reviewed in determining class need and recruiting, mages are totally overwhelmed by wizards, necros and melee dps. This greatly diminishes "mage desirability" in the minds of those who decide upon classes needed for raid makeup.
For those who have discussed this issue with developers in the past, any tips on avoiding pitfalls or traps in the conversation?
Last edited by Danille on Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Well, part of the problem is long running bias people have against mages. Changing that is not something the devs are going to be able to help with. Yes, they can give us DPS boosts so that we get "data" as it were on our side...but getting people to change their opinion of the class is going to take a lot more than that. Even today there is still a ton of anti-pet bias out there that is based on past issues and not the current realities where the majority of those problems no longer exist.
Danille wrote:For those who have discussed this issue with developers in the past, any tips on avoiding pitfalls or traps in the conversation?
Keep in mind the devs may have different ideas concerning class envisioning as we do. Maybe asking directly to the Devs as a group what their class envisioning is for magicians at this point in the game from a raiding point of view. This would just be for their input, don't fall into the trap of expressing your own ideas about where the class should be. This has been done in the past to the detriment of the class as a whole. We as a community should always attempt to get a majority consensus before moving forward on a topic. Yes there will always be those in disagreement on any given stance we as a community take, but we can and should allow time for debate and discussion amongst our peers. Keep this in mind while discussing any and all topics, think before you speak, and you will handle any time with the Devs with grace.
